The fourth-richest man in the world testified in federal court Wednesday that he would have saved Island Air if he knew it would suddenly collapse in 2017 without paying its workers.

Island Air’s bankruptcy trustee and two of the airline’s unions allege in a 2019 civil lawsuit that the airline’s bankruptcy and subsequent liquidation could have been avoided if Larry Ellison, founder and Chief Technology Officer of the software giant Oracle, former Panda Travel CEO Jack Tsui, investment managers for Ellison and Tsui, and other owners poured more money into the company.

On Nov. 10, 2017, Island Air shocked employees, vendors and customers by stopping all operations with 24 hour’s notice. The company filed for Chapter 7 bankruptcy, shutting down and selling all its assets to pay off debts.

The month before, Island Air filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy, reorganized, and proposed a plan to pay some of its debts to get out of bankruptcy.

On the seventh day of the jury trial in the civil lawsuit Wednesday, Ellison, who owns most of Lanai and had a net-worth just north of $137 billion at the close of trading Wednesday, was questioned by trustee attorney Nickolas A. Kacprowski.

Tsui took the stand just before him, and told the court that his investment manager, Jeffrey Au, also named in the suit, managed his $2 million investment in Island Air, briefing him regularly.

Ellison bought the airline in February 2013 and retained a one-third stake when he sold it to Au three years later.

Tsui said he sunk another $2.5 million into the airline through pre-purchased tickets bought by Panda Travel that were never used.

Ellison acknowledged hearing Tsui’s prior testimony that in July 2017 he didn’t have the money to shore up Island Air’s cash flow and save the company.

“Just to be clear, you had the money to save Island Air in August 2017, if you wanted to, correct?,” asked Kacprowski, an attorney with Dentons US LLP, who represents Elizabeth A. Kane, the airline’s bankruptcy trustee.

“If I had been asked, I would have done it,” replied Ellison, dressed in a blue oxford shirt and seated to U.S. District Judge Jill A. Otake’s left.

“Who would you have expected to ask you?” pressed Kacprowski.

“Well, we didn’t know that Island Air had gone under … neither Paul (Marinelli) nor I knew about what was going on at Island Air until a month after the employees weren’t paid,” said Ellison.

Marinelli, who is also named in the lawsuit, has served as president of Lawrence Investments LLC, Ellison’s private equity investment firm, since 2015.

Marinelli has worked for Ellison’s company for nearly 20 years.

Kacprowski asked Ellison about Marinelli’s relationship with Ellison’s investments and if he expected Marinelli to protect his interests and make him money.

Ellison responded that he expects Marinelli to give him advice. He acknowledged that he does not always know everything about every one of his investments, of which he maintains many.

“But with those investments, you still expect Mr. Marinelli to protect your interest, fair enough?” asked Kacprowski.

“I expect Mr. Marinelli to … give me advice, yes,” replied Ellison.

“You expect that Mr. Marinelli will try and make money for you on your investments, correct?” asked Kacprowski.

“I think not all of my investments are intended to make money so, no,” said Ellison, who noted that he makes investments that he knows are going to lose money.

Ellison explained he never read the “detailed complaint” filed in 2019 against Island Air’s owners. Marinelli and others briefed Ellison about the lawsuit and their response.

Kacprowski took Ellison through a series of emails between Ellison, Marinelli and former Island Air CEO Dave Pflieger. Pflieger was the top executive when Ellison owned all of the airline.

The correspondence, including one declaring a “cash crunch” in June 2017, details Island Air’s struggle to stay profitable and make payroll week to week.

It also showed that Ellison agreed in June 2017 with a recommendation from Marinelli not to extend additional funding to the airline while it struggled.

Ellison told the court Wednesday that was to put pressure on Tsui and his ownership group to meet their funding obligations.

As a minority owner, Ellison had no control, and no presence on the board after Marinelli resigned. Ellison did not know what was happening every day inside the company.

“We had no idea they were closing the airline and letting people go without paying them,” said Ellison. “We would never let them not make payroll. We would never let that happen.”

Ellison told the court in response to questions about Pflieger’s management that Pflieger had a “hard job” competing with a market behemoth like Hawaiian Airlines.

Ellison said his goal in buying Island Air was not to compete with Hawaiian but to be profitable.

He also acknowledged one of his primary goals for buying the airline was to service his business interests on Lanai and provide another option in the local market.

When asked whether another airline that serviced Lanai was considered as a contractual option by Ellison, he said no, noting that the other airline serving Lanai at the time was always late.

In their testimony Wednesday both Ellison and Tsui asserted their control over final decision-making when it comes to their money but explained that the outcomes of their decisions were ultimately the result of a team effort that included Marinelli and Au.

Among the lawsuit’s allegations are that Au knowingly undercapitalized Island Air with just $7 million in loans when the two entities he controlled purchased a two-thirds interest in Island Air from Ellison’s Ohana Airline Holdings LLC in February 2016.

The lawsuit also alleges that Marinelli and Ellison kept the airline afloat until they could sell the five aircraft Ellison owned prior to filing for bankruptcy.

In February 2018, the Air Line Pilots Association and the Teamsters, along with the Transport Workers Union, which is not part of the lawsuit, filed claims of nearly $10 million in damages for not providing employees 60 days’ notice of company termination, which is required by law.

The trial continues today.